Steve Lazarides is one of the few individuals on the planet who knows Banksy’s true identity. The esteemed gallerist is credited with launching the notoriously private artists’ career. Keep reading to uncover Barneby’s co-founder Pontus Silfverstolpe’s interview with Lazarides.
Pontus Silfverstolpe: Banksy is one of the most searched artists on Barnebys websites globally. Why do you think his art has become so popular?
Steve Lazarides: It's hard to say, but it's been that way from the beginning. Banksy’s art appeals to both five-year-olds and the elderly. The interesting thing is rather how the audience has shifted between different social classes during Banksy's career. His art can cost a few hundred or cost millions.
How did you meet?
I was commissioned to portray him. I'm a generation older than Banksy, and know most of the people on the Brixtol graffiti scene, so all it took was a conversation and we were in touch.
In other words, you have a picture of him?
Yes, I have many photographs of him.
Even where you see his face?
Yes.
Are you still taking pictures?
Sometimes I forget that I was in the middle of the action [of the art world], but lately I've been reminded when I develop the older material I have. Some of it I post on Instagram.
At the same time, I realize that most people who see my photographs weren't even born when the pictures were taken. So I've realized that it's important to show people what it was really like, that it was a very different time, and that Banksy painted freely with no thought for either his own brand or a possible secondary market.
Related: 10 Artists Between Genius and Madness
Banksy's identity is one of the art world's best-kept secrets. How has it remained so?
Because people want it that way. The people built an aura around an anonymous person. No one wants or benefits from the secret being revealed. It would be like telling a five-year-old that Santa Claus isn't real.
Has it always been like this?
It was different in the beginning. For the first two or three years, the media was chasing us around the clock to get a name or a picture of him. But after a while I think they realized that if they were to expose the anonymous artist and instead write, for example, ‘Dave Smith from Brighton’, the magic would go away – and the magazines would stop selling single issues.
Is it refreshing or annoying to carry around one of art history's best-kept secrets?
I've been doing it for twenty years, so it's not a burden.
Related: The First Known Artworks of 10 Famous Artists
How long did it take for speculation about his art to begin?
When we published prints, the unsigned ones cost £35 and the signed ones £150. We always kept the same prices, regardless of whether there was a much more lucrative market for them on eBay.
Sometimes, when we released the prints for sale, there were buyers who had already prepared their own listings on eBay to resell. Within two minutes, they were re-selling for £2,000 on the secondary market.
But you still continued as before?
Yes, we didn't do it for the money. You have to remember that Banksy hardly made any money from the sales, it was the people who bought and resold them who did. Today, a signed Girl with Balloon that we had sold for £200 goes for £800,000 on the secondary market.
Are Banksy’s prints more important than his paintings?
In a way, yes. We made screen prints because we wanted them to be cheap so that the average person could buy them. That was the whole idea.
What editions were they made in?
At that time we had no idea what we were doing, we were doing big editions of 750 sheets. In total there are probably 30,000-40,000 prints out there.
But not all are signed?
In the past, Banksy signed 150 copies of each edition. But in the beginning we couldn't sell the signed ones. People didn't want to buy a work of art that some unknown person had scribbled his name on: 'Who does he think he is!", sort of thing. It took us years to sell them signed.
Related: 7 Paintings of London You Should Know
Who have been buyers of Banksy's art over the years?
There were a few early fans. We had no idea who they were. I had never studied art or worked in a gallery before, so I didn't realize that some people who bought a quarter of a million worth of work turned out to be some of the biggest art collectors in the world. But as time went on, more and more art advisors came to me. They wanted works by a few artists for their clients and on that list were names like Damien Hirst, Jeff Koons, Tracy Emin and… Banksy. The irony was that it didn't matter which work it was. They just wanted “a Banksy".
What do you think about the price of his art?
To be honest, I'm waiting for the ‘floodgates to open’. The price picture has stalled for the simple reason that there are no really good works coming up at auction. No one wants to sell his work, and once it comes out today, almost all of the trading is done outside the auction market. There, the market is red hot. A signed screenprint of Girl with Balloon currently goes for £150,000. We're talking about a piece of paper that 149 other people have signed, and another 600 have unsigned.
So you're saying none of Bansky's greatest works have been sold at auction yet?
No, not a single one.
Why is this so?
None of the major works have yet been sold at auction because auction houses are offering too low a price for his works. This, in turn, makes collectors avoid selling that way. Unless the auction houses guarantee the seller a relevant sum, it will be a long time before great works are auctioned. To do so would be like playing Russian roulette. Most people who own a good work by Banksy know what they have. They don't sell, unless they really have to.
If someone were to offer me £1.2 million for a better painting, I'd shake my head. For £2 million, I might think twice. For £3-5 million, I might take the painting off the wall.
Related: The True Value of Art
Today, many people make money from his art, including you. How does Banksy see it himself?
No idea. But at least he made enough money to live off his art. And today original paintings no longer leave his studio for £200.
It's like vintage cars. If you bought a Jaguar E-type ten years ago, you had to spend less than you do today. In those days, if you got paid, you were happy. That was the market then. He got what he wanted then.
Why don't you work together anymore?
It's become that way.
What's your story?
I handled the commercial side and the infrastructure around Banksy. I was the contact person at the time. He was the artist.
Do you also have a background as a street artist?
No, I'm a photographer. But I've documented the subcultures around Bristol so I know most of the street artists and knew which journalists were writing about street art. I made sure some of these guys got to exhibit, or helped find funding for some of their projects.
Related: The DADA Eccentricity of Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven
Was Bristol a breeding ground for street artists?
Well, it was for the local artists. It was a very interesting era, before all the graffiti artists went to London to paint. It wasn't just Banksy who achieved success, but artists like Invader, too. It's like always, there are a few artists who are the top tier and can make a living from their art. Most others have it tougher, but there's a reason for that. Will we ever know who Banksy is?
If he himself were to reveal who he was today, I think many would question it. Today, no one wants to know who Banksy is. Banksy should be Banksy and the whole art world benefits from him being a secret.
But there must have been more than one of you who knew his identity. Wasn't it hard to keep everyone from revealing the secret? I suppose the newspapers offered you money?
There were 10-15 of us who knew, but I was the one the journalists came to because I was the only one they knew about. Most of the others were street artists who didn't want their names and faces exposed in the papers either.
Was it because they didn't want to be exposed to the police?
Yes, many people think it was a brilliant PR ploy, but it was because Banksy and the others wanted to protect themselves. I hope it stays that way. He has made his contribution to the world. What would he gain by revealing his identity?
Related: The 10 Most Expensive Living Artists
Can you see a conflict in moving street art to the galleries on the high street?
No, and I'll tell you why. Most of the people from the generation I've worked with have never been sponsored, never received any grants, subsidies or other benefits. Most street artists I know fund their own art projects through the art they sell. If this were not the case, all artists would be the children of wealthy people, and how interesting would art be then?
These artists continue to provide their cities with art and public decoration without asking for anything in return. Then they get criticism when they sell their art. These artists don't paint to get rich, they spend the money they make on the next project. And the next.
So what’s their driving force? Is it political?
For some it's political, for others it's about adorning as many public places as possible. For the rest, it's about wanting to have an outlet, to make their voice heard. Then there are a few who are just plain crazy, like the artist Vega.
Who do you think will be the next Banksy?
I don't think there will be another Banksy. Normally there's only one per generation, but I actually think Shepard Fairey, who became world famous for his portrait of Barack Obama, has reached a similar status. He will become a huge artist. The Louvre in Paris has shown his work twice already.
And the next art trend?
Normally I'm pretty good at predicting trends, but today I'm having a hard time seeing the next trend in the art world. I don't see any new interesting and consistent movement. There's a lot of short-term crap art being created for hipsters today, but I think we're all missing a sustainable artistic movement. These street artists have shaped the strongest art movement since postmodernism, an art movement that has changed every city in the world.
Related: The Art World’s Best Kept Secret
Do you think Banksy changed the way people look at street art?
He popularized it, but there are more people than Banksy who helped with that. Shepard Fairey made a poster of a man who became the first black president of the United States. Today, the work hangs in the National Portrait Gallery in Washington, DC. But there are some who are innovators, who are not just mimicking what the graffiti artists were doing until 1989, but who have found their own language. Banksy is one of them.
Would you describe his art as poetic or political?
His art has a very simple and direct message with elements of politics.
Related: Street Art: For the People
You often hear that street art is not art, but vandalism. When it comes to Banksy's art, I feel like more people accept it as art. Do you agree?
Yes, but so do others. Today, no one talks about Keith Haring or Jean-Michel Basquiat as street artists, unless it's in a context where it adds value to their art.
Do you still take photos?
Funny you should ask, because I've just taken it up again. I've never thought what I do is good, but now that I look back at my photographs I can see the value of them, relate to them, and even think they're okay.
Do you shoot analog or digital?
I now have a digital Leica.
Which artwork do you consider to be his most central and significant work?
It's hard to say, because I think it changes over time. For example, the now world-famous Girl with Balloon was never the most popular print when we sold it. I, personally, think Laugh Now, But One Day We’llBe in Charge says the most about Banksy and his career.
When Girl with Balloon was sold at Sotheby's recently, more than half of the painting was shredded where it hung on the wall of the auction room seconds after the gavel went down. Is it really possible to pull off such a heist without someone inside?
Absolutely! We've done plenty of these types of ‘heists’ over the years. I assure you that it is absolutely possible.
How do you feel about people taking Banksy’s art from public spaces?
I think it's morally reprehensible! When street artists paint in public space, it's a gift to the city and to the people who live there, so that everyone can enjoy the art. It is not for a contractor to carve out the artwork and get filthy rich in the process. It is not for one person to own.
Do you have many Banksy works left?
No, I have only a few works left today.
When I went to photograph one of Banksy's works many years ago, the light was bad so that I hung it on the façade and photographed it. The other day, when I found the picture, I realized that today that painting would have been worth more than the whole house.
Are they for sale?
Like Larry Gagosian once said: everything is for sale, if the price is right.
